Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish bankers

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. (75% delete from 30 votes, and 10 keep votes). - Mailer Diablo 01:50, 19 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

non-encyclopedic listcruft with little hope of ever becoming comprehensive or maintanable → Ξxtreme Unction {^yakł_blah} 12:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete or speedy delete: This isn't just a case of lack of comprehensiveness. This is another one of those "let's list the Jews" things that certain people are forever engaging in. Of evil intent, evil effect, and misbegotten impetus. Geogre 13:28, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Should not breakdown lists by category generally Dlyons493 Talk 14:19, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per nom. --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 14:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - ill-intended Renata3 14:31, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete listcruft with malicious intent. --Bachrach44 14:35, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Illuminati Delete as conspiracycruft, possibly with malicious intent. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 14:49, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, listcruft. —Cleared as filed. 15:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete doktorb 15:38, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Sets bad precedent. Religion and profession are rarely related. Next we'll have a list of "Christian carpenters" or "Muslim plumbers". - Mgm|^(talk) 15:44, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • List of Jews. Includes List of Jewish publishers, List of Jews in business, and List of Jewish criminals. The "Jewish publishers" list has the same anti-zionist air about it that this list does, but it's hard to say. Maybe it's genuine cultural celebration? I dunno. My finger twitches longingly over the AfD button, however. → Ξxtreme Unction {^yakł_blah} 15:52, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yeah, my fingers also twitched. I think we should nominate them all and see what happens. Renata3 17:26, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's already been tried: Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of Jews. The verdict was "keep". — Haeleth Talk 18:21, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. The logical conclusion of this practice is List of Methodist dentists and List of Sikh plumbers. Durova 16:33, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • I should get started on List of unemployed Discordians, then. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 16:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Better not create List of unemployed Discordians. Unemployed people are unlikely to deserve an article, and listing non-existing articles which will never be created (or cannot be created) is cause for deletion. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:48, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, thank you for that advice. In return, might I interest you in a slice of Midwestern Puppymelon? - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 15:24, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, per above arguments. Punkmorten 17:11, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete — Inconsequential list. — RJH 17:22, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep — to be consistent with the other AfDs I'm switching my vote. This series of AfDs on "list of $FAITH $PROFESSION" is beginning to seem too much like railroading. If the information is correct then it's a perfectly valid list of accomplished individuals of the Jewish faith. That seems more than suitable criteria to keep. — RJH 01:20, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep, useful sublist of list of Jews, that should be AFD'd first if it you believe in the conspiracy theory. I notice there's a list of Sikhs, is that a conspiracy too? Kappa 17:41, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • The parent list has already been AfD'd and kept: Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of Jews. — Haeleth Talk 18:21, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per Geogre. --Metropolitan90 17:55, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy Delete as obvious sterotype fun. Coolgamer 21:07, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per another cogent argument by Geogre. FCYTravis 21:41, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per Geogre. Would that it were merely a totally idiosyncratic non-topic. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:25, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete unless there is also a List of Muslim terrorists and a List of Christian slaveholders. This makes my skin crawl. User:Zoe|^(talk) 23:11, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per Durova Ejrrjs | What? 23:40, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. File under "who cares?" listcruft. Impossible maintain and could potentially have thousands of entries, most of whom would be relinked. I'd give careful consideration to the lists under List of Jews too, the concept of which I find vaguely offensive. (I know it survived an AFD, but I think it should be revisited). If someone really wants to pigeonhole people by their religion, there are categories for that sort of thing. 23skidoo 04:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. This makes as much sense as a list of Italian mobsters, or a list of Irish drunks. Szyslak ( [ +t, +c, +m, +e ]) 07:57, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. But someone's gotta make list of Irish drunks. - A Link to the Past (talk) 08:06, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. While all you politically-correct sheep are jumping off a cliff, trying to outdo one another (without actually having visited the main-page list), you failed to realize that this was but one of a series of lists of Jewish notables. It appears to be maintained by Jews and is well-organized, and the persons in the list are "bankers of notabiliy," such as founders of historic firms like Salomon, and most from the 1800's. If it were a conspiracy list, wouldn't it be targeting present-day bankers? So, you sheep can go jump off a cliff, having voted prejudicially without first investigating the case.Ryoung122 09:39, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • You may wish to review WP:ATTACK. → Ξxtreme Unction {^yakł_blah} 12:02, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Baa. Deep down I suppose you really want to know which Sikhs were vital to the elimination of lead-based soldering in plumbing? I still don't want List of Buddhist surgeons. Durova 15:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment Obviously mine was a protest vote, because I don't think many people stop to see what the article is about, before deleting it. I can accept that you don't want a list of Buddhist surgeons, fine. It should be noted, however, that sometimes people form their own preconceived notions: was the list of "Jewish bankers" singled out BECAUSE of the stereotype, while other lists, such as List of Jewish superheroes (actually exists!!!) was NOT because it was seen as a positive portrayal? So the point was not to win the vote, but to get others to think before forming an opinion.131.96.15.39
        • Being quite serious for a moment, yes I did read the article. I'm not at all sure whether this is intended to honor or stigmatize. There are fair arguments either way. I certainly wouldn't jump to the conclusion that someone who did find this offensive hadn't read the page. Granting the poster the benefit of the doubt, I still can't justify the list. Durova 02:16, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • A further response. I too "read" the article (it's just a list, of course), and my vote was based on the fact that I see no useful need for it. I would (and will) vote the same if someone posted "list of roman catholic sheep herders" or "list of buddhist soccer coaches", etc. PC doesn't enter into it. 23skidoo 16:07, 16 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete not because of political correctness, but because I don't believe a list of Methodist dentists would be appropriate either. Jtmichcock
• Delete, obvious listcruft. - Liontamer 14:47, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per above 72.144.139.231 00:36, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Too specific. Youngamerican 16:47, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why not merge into something less specific. And what less-specific list would be appropriate? Kappa 17:33, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • List of Jews, perhaps. Youngamerican 18:29, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep but drastic overhaul I see no reason to assume any more sinister intent than I had when I have started similar lists. However, the article as it stands is dreadful. It doesn't seem to list the Rothschilds, and it's full of red links. RachelBrown 20:38, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reason to assume sinister intent is because "Jewish bankers" have long been one of the primary boogeymen of anti-zionism. → Ξxtreme Unction {^yakł_blah} 12:04, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment There is the saying, "assumptions make asses of us all." We should not "assume" bias without first checking the facts. Checking the facts finds that the list was created in a context of a myriad of occupations, by a person who identifies themself by a Jewish name. No actual evidence of an "attack" is offered. Arniep,on Nov 18, nominated all the "list of Jewish.." for deletion; not surprisingly,those such as "List of Jewish superheroes" were being "kept" while "List of Jewish criminals" was being "deleted." A computer would not have known the difference. Also, by itself a "list of Jewish bankers" might be "sinister," but this list was not by itself, it was with a collection of lists. Thus, what we have here is nothing more than an exercise in political correctness; the bias is caused by the lens we choose to view the list in, not anything that the list "gives" us. 131.96.2.208 21:20, 18 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete per everyone above Descendall 12:15, 16 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Categorize members of the list to Category:Bankers and Category:Jewish [Foobarians] according to nationality, then delete the list, so no information is actually lost. — FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) 14:28, 16 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, because I do, in fact, assume sinister intent in this case (in addition to the utter uselessness of such lists in general). Nandesuka 19:28, 16 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep - see my comments on Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Jewish_publishers - Londoneye 09:33, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - silly, possible bad faith, useless. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 11:15, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep this list seems to have been created in good faith by User:LazarKr who seems to have contributed to many jewish lists including List of Jewish Recipients of National Medal of Technology, which I doubt someone with ill intent would bother doing. Arniep 12:02, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep LazarKr 12:42, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep I abhor the attitude that Jews aren't allowed the same self-identity as anyone else. - Poetlister 12:57, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Keep. I thought it had been possibly in 'bad faith' but Arniep pointed me to User:LazarKr's page who created many of the lists & it seems to be ok. Astrokey44 14:18, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete for the many reasons stated above Antidote 18:01, 17 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. I'm all for a List of bankers with criteria such as founders or presidents of notable banks. To have a List of Jewish bankers smells of boosting stereotypes or ethnic pride. Pilatus 00:26, 18 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep or Moove. see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of Jews --Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 03:52, 18 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete. Many many red-links. As for Poetlister's comment: Wikipedia isn't a place for anyone to "self-identify"—it's an encyclopedia. -- SCZenz 04:19, 18 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • • Comment
• Delete. Preaky 18:26, 18 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Just proving my point, someone (Arniep) nominated a whole "list of" Jewish. Not surprisingly, the "List of Jewish Criminals" is going down in flames, while most of the rest are "speedy keep." In fact, one person who voted against "List of Jewish Bankers" voted FOR some of the other lists. This merely proves my point that reactionary politically-correct bias is operating here...I'm sure a court of law would find that since these lists were created by the same user, who has shown an intent not of anti-Semitism but Jewish identity (being Jewish), taken as a whole the lists should be equal. Remember, DISCRIMINATION is picking out one thing and applying different standards.Ryoung122 09:36, 18 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

List of Jewish American academics List of Jewish American business figures List of Jewish American political figures List of Jewish American scientists List of Jewish American show business figures List of Jewish American sport figures List of Jewish American writers List of Jewish Americans List of Jewish Fellows of the Royal Society List of Jewish Members of the National Academy of Engineering List of Jewish Recipients of National Medal of Technology List of Jewish bankers List of Jewish criminals List of Jewish publishers List of Jews List of Jews in business List of Jews in law

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.