Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Krishnaism: Difference between revisions

Proposal discussion Create a Krishna centered Hinduism project Place to discuss - Krishna worshipers WikiProject -creating unity in diversity! Initial discussion - initiated May 2008 Say what you think about it here: The topical discussion on how you think the Krishna-centered traditions of Hinduism should be represented? Talk:Krishna/Krishna worshipers. We need to talk it over! Look over the list of proposed traditions forming the scope of the project - this list is by far not complete, please add your favorites and discuss! From ancient to modern You can join and make a difference! This is a place to discuss this WikiProject. There are many traditions where Krishna is worshiped and His names revered. The purpose is to join the forces and create more beautiful and well resourced articles. The traditions are not limited to one or two, there are many and all should be given equal attention. Leave a few words here and we will discuss it more and more. List of traditions where Radha-Krishna is worshiped to be covered Bisnupriya Manipuri Vaishnavas Bhagavata Gaudiya Vaishnava Nimbarka sampradaya Svaminarayana sampradaya Vallabhā sampradāya

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• Concerning the academic discussion on Krishnaism...

• Please review a discussion on Krishnaism that can be found at the University of Cumbria website at, Vaishnava. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 03:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Harvey Cox, a very important theologian at Harvard Divinity School has taught a class on Krishnaism there. A New York Times article concerning him and his class has stated this; Spreading the Gospel at Harvard. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 14:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• MULLICK, Bulloram (1898). Krishna and Krishnaism. S.K. Lahiri & Co. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 14:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Description

Uniting and expanding of various traditions where Radha Krishna is worshiped. Wikidās ॐ 21:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interested Wikipedians (please add your name)

• Support - Wikidās ॐ
• Support- Wheredevelsdare (talk) 21:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Support    Juthani1   ^tcs 21:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Maldek (talk) 01:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Simon ives (talk) 07:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Ism schism (talk) 20:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Viprak (talk) 14:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

• The scope will be wide enough to address all needs of any tradition, where Krishna is worshiped as such. Wikidās ॐ 21:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Probably too specialized to be viable. I would keep these discussions within Wikipedia:WikiProject Hinduism. --Eastmain (talk) 21:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Its a wide range of traditions -- but within the scope of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Hinduism with the specialised interest and review scope. Wikidās ॐ 21:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• A few questions. I'm assuming that the phrasing of the description isn't meant to imply that there will be some attempt at religious syncretism here, although the phrasing as it currently exists doesn't rule that out with the "uniting" part. Also, and here I acknowledge my own lack of total awareness of the subject, I'm assuming this is meant to refer to those groups which worship Radha Krishna as primary object(s) of veneration, not simply all those which consider him/them to be divine. A more detailed description of the various groups which are expected to be included in this group would be useful. Also, I know that in some circles Radhakrishna is treated as one entity, although in this case I'm not sure if what is being referred to is one entity or two. Would it be accurate to say that the intention of this group is to deal more directly with the groups which see Vishnu as being derived from Krishna, rather than the other way around? And my apologies for my own often inexact language here. If so, however, how would it relate to the proposed Swaminarayan group? John Carter (talk) 22:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The principle of all inclusive will include all traditions listed here. Its not a question of syncretism, as nobody has to change ones views, its more a common group uniting different traditions, historically and philosophically different, that have the worship of Radha Krishna as part or the main object of worship. Its not exclusive of anyone who would have a difference in the type of worship, nor will this group exclude topic that are not related to Radha Krishna. Like for example history of Swaminarayan even if not the same topic. This group is not based on any other philosophical or otherwise beliefs, as some will consider Radha Krishna to be incarnate of Laksminarayan, that will not exclude in any way or form such group from being the object of this project. Its not single POV project nor is it single tradition project. We are still working on the complete list of the proposed traditions

On the other hand the name, does not cover who is original, be it Vishnu, Narayana, Swaminaraya, Brahman or parabrahman or Krishna. Its clearly can not be a uniting point. What is to unite everyone is that in one way or another they worship Radha Krishna, be it one entity or two divine persons. Wikidās ॐ 22:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the list, the six traditions listed so far seem to be the "Krishna" end of the Vaishnavism spectrum, and to have at present probably sufficient content to justify a work group, although I would still question how it would relate to the proposed Swaminarayan group, though, as I'm not sure it would be the best idea to try to start both simultaneously. Maybe it would work better to start out with this broader group, develop the basic content there, and maybe later split off into various more focused groups later, more or less like what has been done with the various Christianity projects? John Carter (talk) 23:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(Acutally, Dvaita is more on the "Vishnu"/"Narayana" side of Vaishnavism than the "Krishna" end, and I'm not sure about a couple of others on the list.) --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 01:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I defer to your greater knowledge of the subject. Thanks for the clarification.:) John Carter (talk) 02:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting project idea. May be a bit specialized, but it could work. Enough articles are within its scope. I recommend test-driving it as a task force within WP:VAISHNAVA for a while and see if it has potential to remain an active WikiProject. One question - how it its relationship with WP:VAISHNAVA? --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 01:10, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One question which might be relevant here, and I say this knowing comparatively little about "Hinduism" in general, is whether it might work best to contact the Hinduism project and perhaps see if there is enough support for subprojects relating to the major traditions in it. I know from experience a banner can be used to assess and display for multiple subprojects at once, so that shouldn't be a problem. But it might be a good idea to at least consider the possibility of setting up subprojects for all the major traditions at roughly the same time, so that questions regarding interrelationship of the various traditions could all be discussed at basically the same time. John Carter (talk) 02:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed Dvaita from the list of traditions, as they do not worship Radha-Krishna. Radha-Krishna subproject of Hinduism is a good option. I think setting up other subprojects at the same time is also a good idea. How do we proceed? Wikidās ॐ 21:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We need more votes and support before proceeding. I have left a note on WT:HINDU and WT:VAISHNAVA to bring more attention, and potentially more support, to the project. --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 23:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Its a narrow field project that will allow us to focus on various sub projects within its scope. The other will have a similar structure and will include all the goals of the Swaminarayana project described a few entries above, and will also include other groups that need similar presentation. Wikidās ॐ 12:32, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Based on what I can see, the major groups not yet covered specifically by either active or proposed groups are Shaktism, Smartism, Ganapatya, and Saura. Does anyone know if there's enough interest for separate groups regarding any of them? John Carter (talk) 15:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Not really sure about the ism at the end of the title but the project seems like a great idea. Simon ives (talk) 07:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We could create a Wikiproject for every broadly worshipped deity, such as Ganesha. Doing so, however, would detract from the collaboration at the Hinduism Wikiproject. Also, in practice WikiProjects tend to act like cabals. Since ISKON, a cult, represents the most well-known Krisha worship in the west, this may just end up being a forum for their members to vandalize Wikipedia. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 07:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a need of unity to a large number of traditions that do have a large and significant thing in common - and that is Krishna as an object of worship. I do think that if more editors are interested such elements of Indic traditions as Smartism Ganapatya will have its own project, however it appears that this have nothing to do with this particular project that is currently about the following traditions:

• Bisnupriya Manipuri Vaishnavas

• Bhagavata

• Gaudiya Vaishnava

• Nimbarka sampradaya

• Svaminarayana sampradaya

• Vallabhā sampradāya

There are in alphabetic order and no specific preference should be given to one over the other, all need a lot of work in regards of their structure and content and yes they can eventually grow into its own project or sub-project. Task groups are good for specific purposes, but when structuring is involved project is a better means, as there is a lot of material to be added. We should not take a pessimistic approach to Wikipedia as in User:Zenwhat/Stay_sane - we have faith in Wikipedia and we should proceed with the project as it will provide better means to structure the material and let individual groups grow into separate projects. There could be other similar projects on similar views shared by a number of traditions, but its only if sufficient number of editors will be interested. I actually take the point about ism and it can be dropped. Any others suggestions as to the name of the project? I think naming is quite essential, some of the projects really need help. Wikidās ॐ 09:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• This idea proposed by Wikidas is a very good one! I believe these ideas discussed above are very constructive and will facilitate a lot of good editing on Wikipedia through efficient communication. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 21:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Wikidas, perhaps simply WikiProject Radha-Krishna? Simon Ives ^{(talk | contribs)} 01:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would work best using the existing Hinduism project banner, to prevent having too many banners on any given article, but the name proposed above roughly approximates the existing "Shaivism" group. John Carter (talk) 01:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with John Carter. Using the existing Hinduism project banner is appropriate. Krishnaism is also, in my opinion, the best name. Also, in my opinion; Krishnaism is to Krishnology what Christianity is to Christology. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 01:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Concerning the academic discussion concerning Krishnaism... Please review a discussion on Krishnaism that can be found at the University of Cumbria website at, Vaishnava. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 02:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Following is the discussion on the Project name and relationship with existing projects.

The original Faiths worshipping RadhaKrishna sounds good. I would hv thgt it comes under the Hinduism/Vaishnava projects and not a seperate one. Wheredevelsdare (talk) 10:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We have following non contradicting proposals:

• Krishna under Hinduism
• Krishnaism as a project and a portal
• Traditions worshipping Radha Krishna under Hinduism/Vaishnavism
• Krishnaism under Hinduism/Vaishnavism
• Radha Krishna Sampradayas under Hinduism/Vaishnavism

I feel that all of them are correct and should redirect to one page. Wikidās ॐ 11:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I also believe that they should all redirect to one page. In particular, I support Wikidas' idea of a project with a separate assessments that will eventually grow into a portal. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 14:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm in agreement with both wikidas & Ism schism here - Krishnaism as the name of this project and portal with the other names being redirected here. Simon Ives ^{(talk | contribs)} 04:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yesterday I placed tags on this page for the Hinduism and Vaishnavism projects. Since the issue of naming is still under discussion, I have removed the tags until there is some consensus reached on the above discussion. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 15:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it should be Radha Krishna    Juthani1   ^tcs 17:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Juthani, I propose writing an article on Radha Krishna first and create a workgroup that discusses this topic. I think both should go ahead - we need a number of good sources for Radhakrishna worship in different traditions and a good list of temples where Radha Krishna deities are installed and worshiped. What you think. Wikidās ॐ 09:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Came across Radha Krishna - why is it empty? Wheredevelsdare (talk) 21:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Its in the process of being created. Please add material to relevant sections. Thank you very much. Wikidās ॐ 21:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An attempt has been made and the article is standing. Probably the first article to get the Project banner on the talk page. It also falls under a few other banners I guess, such as Wikiproject:Hinduism and Wikiproject:Religion Wikidās ॐ 06:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article has been tagged for not having a 3rd party source, and I cant find one - can u pl help? Wheredevelsdare (talk) 16:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Here is one potential source; Carvings bring temple to life in Avondale. I will try to find others as well. Thanks for posting the note. Ism schism (talk) 17:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks - I came across tht too, but that is of the BAPS Swaminarayan Mandir in Auckland, whiles the article is on the Swaminarayan Sampraday's Swaminarayan Mandir in Auckland. Wheredevelsdare (talk) 17:23, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will keep looking. Since the construction date is so recent, I believe that in the short term news sources will become available. I will continue to look because it seems that there should at least be some articles concerning the Mandir's opening. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 18:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The important question why would you need anything then Official Swaminarayan website? If its listed there and this is an accepted reliable official site, I would say you do not need a newspaper article unless notability is disputed. BTW one project is to create a taskgroup for establishing an official list of reliable websites for this project. Wikidās ॐ 20:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article on the Bisnupriya Manipuri Society is short of references. For such a large group of followers/members, much more could be said but the article itself has little or no references. It is a subject that requires some attention and I will start by trying to find some references. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 19:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BTG Magazine #29-06, 1995 Jayadvaita Swami. "How Manipur Became a Krishna Conscious State". www.jswami.info. Retrieved 2008-05-14. {{cite web}}: Text "Jayadvaita Swami" ignored (help)

Doshi, Saryu. (ed.) 1989. Dances of Manipur: The Classical Tradition. Bombay: Marg Publications.

Naorem Sanajaoba. (ed.) 1988. Manipur: Past and Present. Vol. 1. Delhi: Mittal Publication.

Ningomba, Narendra. 2000. Shumang Lila in Manipur: A Traditional Performing Art Form of Manipur. Unpublished thesis submitted to the department of Culture. Ministry of Human Resource Development. Govt. of India.

Paratt, Saroj Nalini. 1980. The Religion of Manipur: Beliefs, Rituals and Historical Development. Calcutta: Firma KLM Private Limited.

Singh, Ayekpam Shyamsunder. 1980. Manipurgi Shumang Lila amasung Theatre (Manipuri Shumang Lila and Theatre). Imphal: Manipur Sahitya Parishad.

Singh, N. Tombi. 1975. Manipur and the Mainstream. Imphal: Published by N.K. Singh under the auspices of the Cheitrebirentombichand Khorjeirup.

Sircar, Manjusri Chaki. 1984. Feminism in a Traditional Society: Women of the Manipur Valley. Ghaziabad: Shakti Books.

Hope that helps, Wikidās ॐ 18:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have started an article Vaishnavism_of_Manipur - you can help by expanding it if you have time. Wikidās ॐ 21:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have been expanding on this article - Vaishnavism_of_Manipur - and anyone who wants to contribute is very welcome... I never been to Manipur... Wikidās ॐ 08:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Thank you Wikidas for creating the article Vaishnavism of Manipur. This will open up a large religious tradition to further expansion on wikipedia. Thank you, I will look for further information to contribute to this valuable article. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 00:17, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you think this should be a workgroup. I mean it goes under the Hinduism category. It would serve the main function. All you have to do is rename the page (move it). It can be a group under the Hinduism Project.    Juthani1   ^tcs 19:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I second Juthani - it must come under the Hinduism/Vaishnavism umbrella. Wheredevelsdare (talk) 19:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a talk of phasing out the workgroups as a concept on Wikipedia. I'm currently looking into option of keeping it under the Hinduism/Vaishnavism umbrella and at the same time having our own assessments. All suggestions are most welcome. Wikidās ॐ 20:19, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How can the assessments for this project begin? Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 00:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One have to have an assessor (I would nominate Ism schism). Then you need to add a banner (that needs to be created) and place this banner over each talk page. I have added a chart to the front page. But the most important thing is actually adding a banner or yes comment to the Hinduism part of the banner, however there could be some pages that escape Hinduism banner, and that is a consideration for Krishnaism or Radha Krishna own banner.Wikidās ॐ 06:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Presently the Krishnaism page redirects to Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Since Krishnaism is to Christianity what Krishnology is to Christology, it seems that this redirect should be removed and the Krishnaism page be edified. There are already some sources listed at Academic discussion on Krishnaism. This seems to be the obvious companion article to the Krishnology page. Any thoughts? Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 13:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have started working on the article, any comments or edits would be appreciated. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 14:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]