Talk:Dalit Buddhist movement: Difference between revisions

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I've moved the article to Buddhism in modern India. I hope this will end the move war. User:Hkelkar and User:AMbroodEY were justified in moving the article to "Dalit Buddhist movement", because currently the article talks only about Ambedkar and his followers. I will add some information about others. I also request User:Pkulkarni to remain civil and not make remarks such as "People involved in violence are Hindus Or low-caste-Hindus they are not BUDDHISTS", "Anti-Indians" etc. Thanks. Oh, by the way, I'm neither Hindu nor Buddhist. utcursch | talk 14:00, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't forget to fix all the doube redirects. I'm not doing it again. The one who moves the page is supposed to do it. —Hanuman Das 14:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Utcursch, you archived discussions that had comments from earlier today. Could you please clean this up?—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 14:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think any of the comments made on December 6, 2006 are of much interest. They include User:Hkelkar's reasons for move. And some comments by User:Pkulkarni such as "riots in India are laid by low-caste-Hindus", "change your BuddhistPhobia", "Anti-Indians are reverting article". I don't think these are worth discussing. I will move them here, if somebody wants me to. utcursch | talk 15:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with utcursch, it was a good decision. If the comments are going to be reintroduced, they should be refactored. Addhoc 15:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Utcursh, but dont we already HAVE an article on Buddhism in India? अमेय आर्यन DaBrood^© 17:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is too large to fit in Buddhism in India. Besides, merging will only make Buddhism in India controversial. utcursch | talk 17:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do not have any personal quarrel with anybody. But the name Buddhism in modern India is proper. Because India got independance since 1947 and we also became one country. The Buddhist conversion Movement initiated by Dr. Ambedkar is in 1956. So the title is proper. We can put link in Buddhism in India for Buddhism in modern India. Pkulkarni 18:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The link already exists at Buddhism_in_India#Modern_revival. utcursch | talk 18:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Buddhism in modern India" should include information on Ladakh, Sikkim, Tawang, Tibetan exiles, etc. Is this the plan?—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 18:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

At some point, we've got to do away with the first sentence. These are a variety of movements that all started for a variety of reasons. I've no intention or desire to cut Dr. Ambedkar out of the picture by my statement, but merely to suggest that has a bit more scope.

The movement started by Dr. Ambedkar will be a specific and important part of this article, and as a relatively current event, will probably be expanded on in the near future.

At some point, we've got to discuss the term "Neo-Buddhism". Not only is it widely used in news sources, but it's also used in books as well. In order to draw the average reader to this article, the term must be used at some point. HOWEVER, that does not mean that we should label the movement and people as such without quotes where-ever possible. I refer you to the first paragraph of the article on Cults as an example.

Which brings me to my next, somewhat painful, suggestion. We have to specifically discuss Dr. Ambedkar's movement and the assertion by some that it is a Cult. We have to carefully examine what that word means, and how people are using it in this situation. If this is going to be a truly credible article, we've got to cover the bases.

I invite anyone who is concerned or alarmed about my comments to discuss it first on my talk page, then we can bring it here when we've worked things out (particularly if you have concerns about my intentions with these statements). In the interest of getting things done quickly and well, I believe this would be the best thing.

Thanks everyone for your hard work. NinaEliza 20:40, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Nat Krause regarding the scope of this article, if this is going to be about all forms of Buddhism that exist within the borders of modern India. There is a similar issue with Tibetan Buddhism, which is currently about the tradition, but has a redirect from Buddhism in Tibet. Also, I agree with NinaEliza regarding inclusion of the term Neo-Buddhism. Addhoc 22:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there's basically only one kind of Buddhism in Tibet. Not so in India.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 22:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with you folks, will expand the article to include information about non-Ambedkarite Buddhists as well. utcursch | talk 04:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, okay. But, why? Why not just have an article about the Ambedkar movement? The so-called "Neo-Buddhists" and the various Tibetanesque groups have almost nothing to do with each other.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 04:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well of course, we could have both.NinaEliza 05:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder whether Dalit Buddhist users will ever agree to an article on "Ambedkarite Buddhism" or "Dalit Buddhism". That's the reason this move war started. Now that Pkulkarni (talk · contribs) and his/her socks have been blocked, I believe that we can have some constructive discussion here. These users were the ones who were opposed to a title such as "Ambedkarite Buddhism" or "Dalit Buddhist movement". And other users were opposed to a title like "Indian Buddhist revival". That's why I moved the article to Buddhism in modern India, hoping that it would put a stop to the revert war. If nobody has a problem now, I propose this: Merge the content related to non-Ambedkarite Buddhism to Buddhism in India and move this article to "Dalit Buddhist movement". Any objections or better suggestions? utcursch | talk 12:50, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have objection. The dalit term is not an official term in any country. The Hindus are converting to Buddhism irrespective of particular Hindu caste. So the name dalit is absolute false. Indianbuddhist 12:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

---

First thought: It is a fact that many if not most conversions to Buddhism in modern India are conversions by dalits, and the term dalit is WIDELY used. I run into it all the time. Objecting to it because it's not official is beside the point.

Second thought: I do see the problem in distinguishing between a Jat converting to Buddhism and a dalit converting. If they're joining the same organization, then no distinctions should be made between them based on caste, which they have both rejected.

Third thought: ARE they joining the same organization? It seems from the article that there are MANY Buddhist movements in India, including the Ambedkharite movements. Throwing a grab bag of organizations together as one "movement" seems to mis-state the case.

How about moving most of the content to Buddhism in modern India? We could have a history section, listing all the people and "movements" involved, and a contemporary section that would list organizations and viharas. I would also want to see some information on how Buddhism is actually practiced by the supposed millions of followers. Home altars? Festivals? Marriage and funeral ceremonies? Seminaries? Daily prayers and meditation? Pilgrimages to shrines? Financial support of institutions? The impression I get from the article is that people "convert" as a political gesture, in mass ceremonies, and then don't practice at all. I would very much like to be proved wrong here, as I am a Buddhist and I'd like to know that I have dharma brothers and sisters in India. I'm not speaking from the viewpoint of an angry Hindu criticizing the dalits as traitors.

The rest of the information, that is specifically Ambedkharite, could perhaps be relocated to Ambedkharite organizations or some such title, without distinguishing between political and religious organizations. Zora 21:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In reality Buddhism (in India and elsewhere) is represented by his holiness the Dalai Lama, a much more respected figure (everywhere) than Udit Raj, Athawale Ramdas Bandu, and Kancha Ilaiah.Bakaman 00:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Surely it's not up to you, or us, to say who should represent Indian Buddhists. If some self-described Buddhists follow a certain figure, we report that. If others follow someone else, we report that. It's as you were to say, "Hey, listen up Christians, I have declared the POPE your new leader." Zora 00:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I follow Nichiren. I respect the Dalai Lama, but he has nothing to do with my Faith. There are something like 20 million followers (or more) of Nichiren alone. NinaEliza 00:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, NinaEiliza, is right; the Dalai Lama is widely respected, but he can hardly claim to speak for all Buddhists.

Zora, thanks for your comments. What are the various Buddhist movements in India that you're referring to, though?—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 00:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User:Pkulkarni has been blocked for one month for running these sockpuppet or meatpuppet accounts, as confirmed by User:Dmcdevit[1]:

1. User:Bhangi brahmin
2. User:HKelkar2
3. User:Kelkar123
4. User:Iqbal123
5. User:Dhammafriend
6. User:Ambedkaritebuddhist
7. User:Shrilankabuddhist
8. User:Buddhistindian
9. User:Shudra123
10. User:Hindushudra

User:P K aya Kulkarni has also been blocked as a suspected case. Thought of dropping a note here, as all these accounts have been involved in edit/move wars related to this article. utcursch | talk 12:43, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'm sure the info is much appreciated by everyone involved, including myself.NinaEliza 18:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's good to know. By the way, if you ever run into User:Dhammapal, please don't confuse him with the sockpuppet, User:Dhammafriend.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 02:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I believe there is scattered consenus to change the title of this article to "Neo-Buddhism". However, I don't have time at the minute to write a descriptive paragraph that would explain the term. In the interest of having an article that makes sense, I think we should keep the title as it is, until we can agree on some definitive statement. More later. NinaEliza 18:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Neo-Buddhism already redirects to Dalit Buddhist movement. utcursch | talk 04:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's good to have some discussion going about the scope of this article. I think having an article specifically about the Ambedkarite movement sounds pretty good. On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with the scope that this article originally had: about the overall resurgence of Buddhism in mainstream Indian society (as opposed to Tibetan-related groups in the north who have lately become Indian citizens).—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 02:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I put that stuff (Anagarika Dharmapala etc.) in the Buddhism in India article, which is quite small in size and needs expansion. utcursch | talk 16:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've rewritten the article. The diff is here. In my opinon, there is no original research now. So, I've removed both {{Cleanup-rewrite}} and {{Original research}} tags. Please feel free to put them back, if you've any issues. Thanks. utcursch | talk 04:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the re-write, it looks like a viable article now. I appreciate your effort.

On a side note, I'm afraid that I can do no more than to check occasionally on the page. It's not that I no longer care, but frankly it's accumulated to much "baggage" for me at this time. I don't, however, abandon the hope that I can contribute to it at a later date.NinaEliza 04:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is very strange to know that BuddhistIndian account was blocked. I am very much surprised to know that it has been awarded as sockpuppet of somebody .. On what basis u did it? I am writing from a cybercafe. So any Indian Buddhist who tries to write will be braded as sockpuppet?? Coz most of the people share same views. The Hindu users are more interested to vandalise the articles with warped views. What is dalit buddhist movement?? Dalit is a vague term Hindu Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribes are Hindus only.

There are some anti-Buddhist admisnistrators does it mean they can block very Indian Buddhists as sock puppet because everybody will write similar views. In the above discussion how many Indian Buddhists are involved to brand Indian Buddhists as Dalits?? Indianbuddhist 12:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Anagarik Dhammapala Never started Dalit Movement. Dalit Movement was started by a poet Namdeo Dhasal who was born in Hindu Untouchable community. Now-a-days they are legally colled as Scheduled Caste and Scheduled tribes Indianbuddhist 12:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, guys ..why are u reverting talk pages? Britzzz 20:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dmcdevit ran a checkuser and discovered more socks of Pkulkarni. I am in the process of blocking all of them and adding appropriate templates.

• Innocent123 (talk · contribs)
• Holybrahmin (talk · contribs)
• Hinduscholar (talk · contribs)
• Thegreat123 (talk · contribs)
• Britzzz (talk · contribs)

Regards, - Aksi_great (talk) 10:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, just to note that was the result of my check. :-) Dmcdevit·t 10:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have indef-blocked Pkulkarni. Comments are welcome here. - Aksi_great (talk) 10:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User:Krishnak12 is also most probably one of his socks. utcursch | talk 11:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Krishnak12's IP is from a different country than Pkulkarni. It may be possible that it is an open proxy. Till Dmcdevit checks the IP with other checkusers we will have to go by his editing habits. - Aksi_great (talk) 11:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Below is the list of few born Shudra Hindu kids who aremeatpuppet accounts and are not following any wiki directives. As well as blocking ALL OUR accounts. They are misusing the administrative rights. All our friends account can not be blockded by making them sockpuppet of one user.

• Aksi_great (talk · contribs)
• Dmcdevit (talk · contribs)
• Utcursch (talk · contribs)
• Hkelkar (talk · contribs)
• New Rock Star (talk · contribs)
• NinaEliza (talk · contribs)
• AMbroodEY (talk · contribs)
• GourangaUK (talk · contribs)
• Maleabroad (talk · contribs)
• GourangaUK (talk · contribs)

There are few users but soon there will be many more to contribure on Wikipedia about born Shudra's Hindu Religion. Weareclever 17:07, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]