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This article was nominated for deletion on 11 December 2006 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
Not too sure what the benchmark for notablity is here. Quite obviously they are fairly well known and signed to a record label, etc. What references do you require?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Makrugaik (talk • contribs) 15:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- Quite obviously they are fairly well known. Why is this obvious? To somebody with knowledge of the modern pop-scene perhaps, but not to the general public. What makes this group more notable than any other student band? (I assume that Bat For Lashes is a band, though this is not clear from the article. It just says a creation).
- See WP:BAND for the criteria required to decide whether a band is notable or not. These are guidelines rather than firm rules, but in general consider the following questions:
- Has the band had a hit single?
- Has the band been on a ntaional or international tour?
- Have any of the band members been in any other notable bands?
- Has the band been featured in multiple non-trivial published works in reliable and reputable media?
- If the answer to any of these is yes, then the nand is notable. However, you will need to put some citations (e.g. links to other websites, references to books, journals etc) in the article which prove this. — Tivedshambo (talk) 08:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
- Bat For Lashes is on the current Xfm playlist, this is another indication of notability; I think however we may require more. Y control 08:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Bat for Lashes is not a "Student Band"
- Bat For Lashes is on the current Xfm playlist, this is another indication of notability; I think however we may require more. Y control 08:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Other artists on Echo Records are all internationally known. Also I recall this artist being single of the week on Radio 1's Jo Wiley lunchtime show in August or September. However, the most notable sign of notablity on the BBC is probably being asked in to do a live session here:
Notability
Bat For Lashes has done a national tour I believe, dates are present here: http://www.batforlashes.co.uk/live.html
As for featuring in the media, The Sunday Times, Observer and NME have all reviewed the album, other publications have alos featured live reviews and other features. They can be found here: http://www.batforlashes.co.uk/review.html#
The fact that they have a published album by a reputable company (Chrysalis Music Ltd) is notable in itself. Chrysalis Music Ltd have published albums by Outcast, Thom Yorke, and the Black Keys.
Full roster here: http://www.uk.chrysalismusic.co.uk/core/roster.cfm
Bat For Lashes are signed to the Echo reord label, which also features artists such as Feeder, Morcheeba, Ray Lamontagne and Moloko.
Sorry if anything's wrong. First time I've used this new fangled encyclopedia.
Mattkelsall 16:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
They appeared at the Glastonbury Festival's John Peel tent in 2007, half way up the bill and their live set was broadcast by the BBC.
Birthplace
Sources I've found fail to make clear where Kahn was born (some vaguely imply a Pakistan, others an England birthplace). Is there one that I've missed? (E.g., the official Website says: "Natasha was born in to the world famous Khan squash-playing dynasty and travelled the world as a child. 'Periods of my childhood were spent in Pakistan…'" — very unclear.--Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- Incidentally, the Bat for Lashes Website clearly refers to "the band"; it's not her pseudonym. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
My last comment is contradicted by a promotional piece sent to me by Bat for Lashes' PR people, the main part of which reads:
Fur and Gold is the debut album from Bat For Lashes, the nom de plume of singer/songwriter, multi-instrumentalist and visual artist Natasha Khan. Born in 1979, yet combining influences that span decades, Natasha’s work dwells in the elemental, emerging in timeless forms.
Her debut single, "The Wizard / I Saw A Light", was released in May via the Drowned In Sound Digital Singles Club and as a 7” on Natasha’s own imprint, She Bear Records. It instantly sold out, due in part to her captivating performance at the All Tomorrows Parties Festival in May, where Bat For Lashes was invited to play by Devendra Banhart; they managed “to transform the room into witching hour in a small central European forest” (NME), becoming the unexpected hit of the weekend.
Little wonder she had such an impact. Bat For Lashes’ music is bold and vivid. Her live shows, with accomplices Ginger Lee and Abi Fry, are made up of thunderous marching band drums, desert guitar, ballet school piano, harpsichord, sub-bass snarls, hand-claps and naive beats. There are also interludes of exquisite heartbreak – the piano ballad ‘Sad Eyes’ has on more than one occasion left audience members in tears.
It was whilst working as a nursery school teacher, following her university degree in film and music, that the album opener ‘Horse & I’ came to Natasha in a dream. Inspired by tales of Joan of Arc, Natasha is woken by a black horse at the window and sent on a fateful quest…
This extraordinary dream became the muse for the songs that now comprise Fur and Gold. Recorded in London and Brighton, Natasha co-produced the album with David Kosten (Faultline). Recurrent themes of natural forces and animal kingdoms, rugged English cliff tops and engulfing oceans – highlighted on the lament ‘Seal Jubilee’, are juxtaposed by the energy of rough urban living, teenage bedrooms and the freedom of California highways.
Josh T Pearson (Lift To Experience) guests, adding guitar and vocals on three tracks – the brooding live favourite ‘Trophy’, ‘Seal Jubilee’ and the finale ‘I Saw A Light’, adding the kind of hymns and chaos that only the son of a preacher could provide.
The work of an artist with a distinct and complete creative vision, Fur and Gold is unlikely to be forgotten in a hurry. Debut albums like this are scarce, and very special.
Having spent parts of her childhood in Pakistan, Natasha Khan now lives by the sea in England... where she regularly follows her dreams.
I've included some of this in the article. More might be usable. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:02, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
- “It’s wild swans calling and emerald slippers pattering, mystery and mysticism and bad weather. It’s storytelling, fantasy and the desire for discovery, creation and procreation. It’s the thunderstorm when Heathcliff returns to Wuthering Heights, or the tornado that whisks off Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz… and her voice, like rain on your heart” Plan B Magazine
- The following was also included; it confirms some other material in the article:
“like Bjork stranded on a stormy moor, the debut single from Brighton’s Natasha Khan is both beautiful and haunting” NME
- “promisingly original … conveys every bit of the spine-tingling sinister uniqueness of Never For Ever-period Kate Bush… delicately malevolent… a burgeoning talent” Metro
- “Khan manages to put this indescribable feeling of dreams and nightmares, and of her religious upbringing in suburbia, into a context which can relate a genuine depth of emotion … impressive” The Fly
- “wizards and wolves, whispers and thunder – Natasha Khan traverses magical realms, peeking around dark corners and leading us into beautifully spooky territory … this enchanting songstress is perfectly poised to step into the light” Flux
- “simply oozes star quality ... Khan creates her own world and sucks you in. Bat For Lashes walk that line between commercial and ethereal. Their music is monumental” launch.com
- “levitating beautifully at the exact fulcrum of the Bjork-Talk Talk-Antony & the Johnsons triangle… utterly enchanting” playlouder
- “unquestionably unique… Make no mistake: Bat For Lashes will take you somewhere else” Dummy
--Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Average Earthman's edits
Sorry, but:
- "She undoubtedly has a British passport" isn't good enough; is there a reliable source?
- Bios and interviews (including material on the official Web site) show that she travelled around a great deal in her childhood; there are no grounds for the claim that she was brought up in Hertfordhire (nor that all her summers were spent in Pakistan).
- What's the point of including the statement that she's not religious? Whjat does it have to do with the music (and as this is anarticle about her stage name, it's about the music). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
- Response:
- You've left her as a Pakistani singer without any proof she has a Pakistani passport. You try googling her for a reference she's Pakistani. All non-UK reviews I've seen call her British. She's grown up in the UK, she's definitely entitled to a UK passport as she's been living here and working her for many years.
- Grounds for saying she grew up in Hertfordshire - interviews with her where she says she did. I cited one, here's more [1], [2], [3]
- What's the point in saying what her upbringing is then? Someone's religious beliefs can definitely affect their musical viewpoints, from Yusuf Islam to Paul Heaton of the Housemartins.
- Can we have cites for your statements that she "travelled around a great deal" rather than alternately Hertfordshire and Pakistan? All her official website says is "Periods of my childhood were spent in Pakistan" and a visit to San Francisco aged 20. All interviews I've seen say she grew up in Hertfordshire and Pakistan. This is not "travelled around a great deal" Average Earthman 23:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
- Being entitled to a U.K. passport doesn't equal having one. Her own comments have her growing up in various places around the world, with much time spent in England and in Pakistan. Her family is Pakistani, not British, which is the only thing that we're certain of.
- Your second and fourth comments contradict each other: how can she have grown up in Hertfordshire and have spent periods of her childhood in Pakistan?
- And there's no reason to suppose that that's the case here. If you do have a (cited) reason, then fine, I'm wrong.
- The first sentence of the bio on her official Website says: "Natasha was born in to [sic] the world famous Khan squash-playing dynasty and travelled the world as a child." Publicity material sent to me by her PR person makes the same claim. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:59, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Response again
- I said she grew up in Hertfordshire because according to the interview in the Telegraph she said she grew up in Hertfordshire [4]. Have you read any of these articles I keep citing? I'll excerpt a bit if you can't be bothered ' "Khan's exotic breed of Englishness stems from her Anglo-Pakistani upbringing. "I grew up in leafy suburban Hertfordshire," she says" ' That's her own comments. With cites. See also [5], [6]
- The UK government does not require you to have purebred Anglo-Saxon or Celtic ancestry to be entitled to a UK passport. On residency terms, she undoubtedly qualifies - she's lived in the UK for years - and anyone who went to a UK university who qualified for a UK passport on residency terms but wouldn't bother getting one would have to have money to burn. We do not have a photocopy of her passport, and her biography does not give her nationality. I see no reason to doubt she is as British as, for example, another Natasha Khan from Brighton [7].
- Others keep calling her British [8], [9], [10].
- "Travelled the world as a child" sounds like PR puff. In interviews I've seen she has only mentioned Hertfordshire and Pakistan. I've stated this with quotes. You've deleted and gone back to the 'PR puff' both times. If you know of other countries, let's have the other countries. If not, why not list the places she has actually been quoted in verifiable interviews as saying she has lived in? It's more useful information than a generic "travelled the world".
- I'm adding this to the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies. I feel that at least some of my edits, backed as they are by multiple cites of interviews, are valid. Average Earthman 10:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems that you think that what she says in the citations that you give is clearly true, and what she says in the citations that I give is just PR puff (because "I grew up in leafy Hertfordshire" couldn't possibly be PR puff, now could it? Her own official website makes one set of claims, journalists make another set; why do you think the journalists are to be trusted? And your reasoning that if she's entitled to a passport she'd be bound to have one is original research.
You also keep making the same elementary mistake: that someone who is entitled to a British passport therefore has one, and is British. It isn't so. Moreover, your claims about who is entitled are mostly simply false; living in the U.K. for years isn't sufficient qaulification (ask Fayed). And the peculiar challenge to me to go beyond what's written because it's interesting demonstrates a clear lack of understanding of the criteria for adding material to an article. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- But to me, you continue to make the same elementary mistake - that nationality of father means she must share the same. You've provided no proof *at all* that that is the case. You haven't proven she's Pakistani, merely that she's got Pakistani ancestry. Having a Pakistani father does not mean you are Pakistani (see any number of English sportspeople for that). Raised also doesn't make it (e.g. her friend Devendra Banhart isn't listed as Venezualan). So the proof that she is Pakistani is also lacking. So why do you accept that, and refuse any concession of British?
- We haven't absolute proof of nationality at all. None of the UK interviewers appear to bother stating she is Pakistani, only that she her father's family is, which is possibly odd. Reviews have called her British [11] [12]. Interviews (which I starting to doubt you've bothered reading) say that she lived in England a lot as a child, when the only mentions of Pakistan are as a child, when she went to University in the UK (and paying overseas fees when you're entitled to a British passport is an utter waste of money - are you really saying you believe she'd happily have wasted thousands of pounds?), reviewers calling her British, nobody other than you stating she isn't, but we have NOTHING that states explicity what her nationality is - so why insist on removing her from the category of British singers? I'm not demanding you remove her from the Pakistani singer category, merely that she be included in the category of British. Do you demand a photocopy of her passport before admitting she might be British? Or will her being nominated for say, Best British newcomer category at the Brit awards be satisfactory, if/when that happens? What level of proof are you demanding here?
- How about place of birth? The Independent on Sunday think she was born in Wembley. [13].
- Also how many cites do I have to give you where she says she grew up at least partially in England before you will admit to have any mention of growing up in England allowed? Why is spending any part of her childhood in Pakistan (five summers according to the Telegraph) worthy of mention, but England (far more than five years) not? I mean, if you genuinely think the interviewers for the Telegraph, Independent, etc. are fools and liars and not to be trusted, please say so. But really, can't we at least *mention* England, since she keeps doing so in interviews? And why can't you mention these other countries if she "travelled the world"? What other countries where they? Don't you know? Average Earthman 12:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I suggest that you read WP:CITE; it might take more time than being sarcastic here, but it will be more productive. Also, reading what I (and the current article) say will be more productive than accusing me of not reading the interviews to which you've linked, none of which backs up your contention that she has British nationality, grew up in Hertfordshire, etc. That she spent part of her childhood in England isn't disputed — nor is it what you've been trying to insert into the article. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- Anecdotal this, I know, but having seen her in TV interviews, her accent is clearly English (as is also evident from the spoken, rather than sung, sections on her album). Indisciplined 20:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
As it probably would be even she'd been wholly brought up in a middle or upper class family in Pakistan. Spending a lot of time in England would accentuate that (no pun intended). --Mel Etitis (Talk) 20:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- I think I can resolve this argument - the official website is saying (at the time I looked at it just now, 2nd July 2007) that she's British [14]. Would everyone be happy with that as a citation?
10:15
Jimthing made this edit recently "Despite being the favourite to win --and after performing the song "Horse and I" at the ceremony held at London's Grosvenor House on Tuesday 4 September 2007-- when the winner was announced by Jools Holland at 10:15pm she lost out to rank outsiders Klaxons". This paragraph has changed a lot since, but the issue is the inclusion of 10:15
Jim things proposal reads
"Tuesday 4 September 2007— when at 10:15pm the winner was announced by presenter Jools Holland, Bat for Lashes lost out to the bookies rank outsiders Klaxons."
I feel the specific time has no relevance to the content and is merely a stylistic embellishment - fine for a magazine article, but not an enclyclopedia. It also gives the text a quality of dramatising the events rather than having a neutral tone. 18:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- That would be this edit. (There was another round of reversions before this.) My basic reaction is So what? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
What a positive contribution. I feel its inappropriate but don't want to keep undoing a persistent new user without reflecting they may have a legitimate point- your opinion could be useful. If you don't have opinion either way I'll do what i think is right which is remove content in an essay-ish or journalistic tone. 3tmx 23:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Info Fail WP:N. New Editor with possible WP:OWN issues. 3tmx 09:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)