CNN&Time

Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood; Queen of Jazz; Bishop Unbound

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: And Reverend Fovarty (ph) says I want my son.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: He transcends the sport.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: This can't be happening to our school.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: And Pope John Paul would be able to fulfill his dream.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: American politics unfolding...

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ANNOUNCER: Tonight, Mr. Rogers' neighborhood.

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FRED ROGERS, MR. ROGERS' NEIGHBORHOOD: It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.

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ANNOUNCER: For 30 years, he's invited us to be his neighbors.

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ROGERS: Would you be mine?

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ANNOUNCER: A pioneer who's helped to raise two generations.

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ROGERS: How are you doing with your tying?

I got into television because I hated it so.

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ANNOUNCER: Queen of jazz. She's known them all. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GORDON: Thelonius.

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ANNOUNCER: And worked with the best.

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GORDON: That's Coleman Hawkins. This is where he was sitting, whatever chair was here.

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ANNOUNCER: The diva of New York's jazz scene.

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GORDON: I heard this wonderful record with Flip Phillips (ph).

Oh, yes, Barbara was there, yes. As a matter of fact, she was at the Vanguard, too, when Miles was there.

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ANNOUNCER: Stories from the most famous basement in the world.

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GORDON: Oh, you've come back again.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: We did come back.

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ANNOUNCER: Bishop unbound, they are of various races and religions, and yet they all flock to this high tech sanctuary. Why? Because they've found common ground in this man, T.D. Jakes.

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JAKES: There is a common thread in my message that says you can make it, you can survive, you can overcome whatever it is that you face.

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ANNOUNCER: Part preacher, part motivational speaker, T.D. Jakes is at the crest of a new wave of young, dynamic evangelists. But is he the next Billy Graham?

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ARAM ROSTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They point to the huge house, the beautiful cars, the well tailored suits and they ask is that the message your followers are getting, that they can receive these nice things if they follow god?

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ANNOUNCER: CNN and "TIME" with Jeff Greenfield and Bernard Shaw.

BERNARD SHAW, CO-HOST: Good evening and happy holidays.

He is probably one of the most recognizable figures in television history, an icon in a cardigan. But Mr. Rogers is hanging up his trademark sweater and saying good-bye to his beloved neighborhood. He taped his final show just before the new year.

The reason? Rogers simply feels that his program, after nearly 1,000 episodes, has accomplished its mission. It was that mission that Rogers returned to again and again when he first spoke with us late last year.

Here's Jeff Greenfield.

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JEFF GREENFIELD, CO-HOST (voice-over): Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers to you and me, has been walking through the same door for more than 30 years.

ROGERS: It's a beautiful day in this neighborhood, a beautiful day for a neighbor, would you be mine, could you be mine?

GREENFIELD: Walking into his living room and ours, inviting our children to his neighborhood and his land of make believe.

ROGERS: Could you be mine?

The whole idea is to look at the television cameras and present as much love as you possibly could to a person who might feel that he or she needs it.

GREENFIELD: There's a comforting saneness to Mr. Rogers and his neighborhood.

ROGERS: Do you ever change your shoes when you come home from someplace?

GREENFIELD: The shoes, the sweaters, we'll tell you about those sweaters.

ROGERS: It's you I like.

GREENFIELD: The voice.

ROGERS: It's not the things you wear.

GREENFIELD: The characters, all at a slow, easy to absorb pace aimed at young children.

ROGERS: It's a pretty killer day, beautiful day in this neighborhood.

We're here to have a half hour together.

You and moi ensemble (ph).

Let's just relax and talk about things that might be important to you and are important to me.

UNIDENTIFIED DIRECTOR: And action.

GREENFIELD: If it all seems a bit old-fashioned in this era of fast paced cartoons, quick edits and product tie-ins, that's because Mr. Rogers has some old-fashioned notions about television, notions you don't hear much these days.

ROGERS: I believe that those of us who are the producers and purveyors of television, I believe that we are the servants of this nation.

GREENFIELD: Fred Rogers didn't plan on a career in television. He was a music major at Rollins College. He wanted to be a composer. But there was something about television, then in its earliest years, something that interested and annoyed him at the same time.

ROGERS: I got into television because I hated it so and I thought there was, there's some way of using this fabulous instrument to be of nurture to those who would watch and listen.

God bless America...

GREENFIELD: He started out at NBC, worked as a floor manager for Kate Smith. Then he heard that something called educational television was starting up, so he moved back home to Pittsburgh and started a show.

ROGERS: My friends at NBC thought I was crazy. That place isn't even on the air yet, they said. And I said well something tells me that there's going to be a chance to use what's been given to me in that medium.

UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: The Children's Corner with Josie Carey (ph) and Fred Rogers produced by WQED.

GREENFIELD: That chance was in children's television. He began by writing and producing a program called The Children's Corner.

ROGERS: If you may just come and stay...

GREENFIELD: Then after a short stint on Canadian television, Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood was born. That was almost 33 years ago, making it PBS' longest running show.

ROGERS: What a fine voice you have.

GREENFIELD: Making him a star to the under six set and their parents. It was a golden opportunity to cash in, an opportunity he never took.

ROGERS: And when people would suggest that we have these outlandish merchandising schemes, I would simply say no. I was able to say no.

GREENFIELD: And he meant it. Fred Rogers is not your average TV star. He buys second hand clothes, drives an old car, lives simply.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Does that feel comfortable, Fred?

ROGERS: It feels fine.

I never had much of a desire for a fancy lifestyle and I never needed a lot of fancy things.

Because I like you as you are.

GREENFIELD: Little has changed in Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood during the last 30 years, except maybe the color of his hair. There is still a live band.

ROGERS: We laughed when he left.

GREENFIELD: Fred Rogers still watches every frame of the show.

ROGERS: (unintelligible) delivery.

GREENFIELD: And some of the characters, like Mr. McFeeley (ph), are originals.

ROGERS: Which one of these am I supposed to wear?

GREENFIELD: So are some of the sweaters, which were all Christmas gifts knitted by his late mother.

ROGERS: My mother made a sweater a month for as many years as I knew her and every Christmas she would give this extended family of ours a sweater and she would always say after we opened the box and put on the sweater, she would say, "What kind do you all want next year?" She said, "I know what kind you want, Freddie. You want the one with the zipper up the front."

GREENFIELD: But if life inside the neighborhood is something of a time capsule, life outside the neighborhood has changed dramatically. But for Fred Rogers it always comes back to children, to what they need.

(on camera): So what's your sense of who the children of 1999 are as opposed to the children of the mid-1960s? Deep down the same?

ROGERS: That's just what I was going to say, deep down the same. Yeah. We all long to be lovable and capable of loving and whatever we can do through The Neighborhood or anything else to reflect that and to encourage people to be in touch with that, then I think that's our ministry. GREENFIELD (voice-over): An appropriate choice of words, since Fred Rogers several years ago became an ordained Presbyterian minister.

ROGERS: I'd like you to meet my friends.

GREENFIELD: He does not preach to or at children. Instead, he thinks the space between the TV set and the viewer is holy ground, not to be abused by television producers. But a lot of what he sees these days on television worries him.

ROGERS: And I plead with everyone who is producing and purveying these atrocities to please remember the children.

You may begin, Daniel.

GREENFIELD: Fred Rogers tries to reach out to kids and to their parents during extraordinary events such as war.

ROGERS: Children aren't responsible for wars.

GREENFIELD: When we talked to him, it was in the wake of the Columbine school massacre.

(on camera): What does Fred Rogers say either to the kids directly or to the parents of those kids to somehow overcome the enormous force of those terrible pictures?

ROGERS: Those children need to know that the adults in their lives will do everything they can to keep them safe. Now that doesn't mean that we're always going to be successful, but it does mean that we will try.

GREENFIELD (voice-over): Fred Rogers is 72 now and he's been reflecting on the virtues of a simple life.

ROGERS: In my own life, as the nearer I get to the end of life on this earth, the simpler I want to become.

GREENFIELD: With age and accomplishment have come awards, recognition by his broadcasting peers. One of his sweaters is in the Smithsonian. That's something he thinks his mother would be proud of.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I hereby confer upon you the degree Doctorate of Humane Letters.

GREENFIELD: And a string of honorary degrees.

ROGERS: Well, it's a beautiful day in this neighborhood.

GREENFIELD: And often when he stands up to accept the honor or to speak at an important conference like this one at the White House, he asks for something increasingly hard to find, a special moment of silence.

ROGERS: Think about all the people in our lives who have helped us to become who we are. Anybody who has wanted you to know that you have value, would you mind taking a half minute to think of those people? I'll watch the time. Well, whomever you've been thinking about, imagine how proud they must be to think that you felt they made such a difference in your life.

GREENFIELD: He says silence offers a valuable chance to go deeper within ourselves. Indeed, he made the same challenge to us.

ROGERS: Would you dare to give some silence on your program for the people who are watching?

GREENFIELD (on camera): We'll find out.

(voice-over): If his show delights in the familiar, so does its creator. Fred Rogers is very much a creature of habit. He swims every morning, like he lives life, slowly, methodically and except for the day we visited, in the nude. He's a vegetarian and kids can't seem to resist telling him just about anything.

ROGERS: Look at them.

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: I think that you're a really nice man.

ROGERS: I do think that young children can spot a phony a mile away.

JOANNE ROGERS (ph): I have one line that I'm quoted all the time, but it's a good one. What you see is what you get with Fred.

GREENFIELD: Joanne Rogers should know.

JOANNE ROGERS: I'm so proud of you.

GREENFIELD: In fact, she's known him since their college sweetheart days. Mother of their two sons, an accomplished concert pianist, she is also Fred Rogers' wife of 48 years.

(on camera): Was Fred Rogers the father of small children at home pretty much the way we would imagine him to be if we'd only known him from TV?

JOANNE ROGERS: Yes. He had a patience the likes of which I greatly admired but couldn't emulate.

EDDIE MURPHY: It's one hell of a day in the neighborhood.

GREENFIELD (voice-over): Perhaps because he seems too good to be true, Fred Rogers has often been parodied, most famously by Eddie Murphy on SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE.

MURPHY: Hello, boys and girls. We're all alone again today. You know why? My wife walked out on me.

GREENFIELD: He takes it in good humor.

ROGERS: And I remember when Eddie Murphy met me for the first time. He just put his arms around me and said the real Mr. Rogers.

UNIDENTIFIED MOTHER: And my son Matthew.

ROGERS: What is your first name?

UNIDENTIFIED MOTHER: Catherine (ph) (unintelligible).

GREENFIELD: Whenever Mr. Rogers makes a public appearance, he is surrounded by generations of fans whose gratitude can sometimes overwhelm him.

UNIDENTIFIED FAN: Mr. Rogers, it's a pleasure to meet you.

ROGERS: Hi. I'm glad to meet you. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FAN: I watched your show as a youngster. I wasn't allowed to go to preschool because I had a disability and my mom made me watch your show every day, so thank you.

ROGERS: Bless your heart and here you are.

UNIDENTIFIED FAN: Thank you for my preschool education.

ROGERS: And thank you for inspiring me today. Bless your heart.

GREENFIELD: Where Fred Rogers learned to express his emotions was at the piano. He still heads to the piano during a taping if things aren't going well.

ROGERS: If you've got a smile now's the time to show it.

GREENFIELD: Music is a key element not only of his program, but his life. He's written more than 200 songs.

ROGERS: There were times, I can remember times going to the piano and actually being sad that way. But then, you know, came the time when I started writing real songs and now, of course, that's a major way of saying at the end of the program, for instance, it's such a good feeling to know you're alive, a happy feeling you're growing inside and when you wake up ready to say I think I'll make a snappy new day. And the children all do that.

GREENFIELD: You can't be around Fred Rogers for very long without getting a bit caught up yourself, especially when he invites you to join in.

ROGERS: Some are fancy on the outside, some are fancy on the inside, sing with me. Every is fancy...

ROGERS AND GREENFIELD: ... everybody is fine, your body's fancy and so is mine.

ROGERS: That's fine.

GREENFIELD (voice-over): Fred Rogers doesn't want you to leave without one last reminder of his philosophy, that children, indeed, all of us, are best served by simplicity.

ROGERS: Thank you sweetheart.

UNIDENTIFIED FAN: Thank you very much. Bye.

ROGERS: Because in the last analysis, people really are going to put aside the fancy exterior and all that's going to be left is what's inside of us and the deeper we can understand that, the better.

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SHAW: Mr. Rogers may have stopped production of his show, but he isn't retiring. He plans to devote more time to writing books and developing his Web site. And Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood won't be disappearing from television any time soon. PBS plans to show reruns of Rogers' program for many years to come.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up...

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JAKES: My press just started a group.

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ANNOUNCER: He's been called the shepherd of the shattered.

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JAKES: It was my idea of responding to women who I've counseled and were hurting and had been through various types of oppressions.

But you've got to be crazy enough to...

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ANNOUNCER: T.D. Jakes is on a drive for souls, as CNN and "Time" continues.

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ANNOUNCER: Next, Elian, the Mideast and the year that was.

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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Something happened, each time something different, which spirals the conflict up into a new intensity, onto a new level, into another direction.

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ANNOUNCER: When CNN and "Time" continues.

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SHAW: From a six-year-old survivor to a photo finish, 2000 was a year of dismissals, downfalls and everything chad. A look at the year that was in tonight's Dispatches.

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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A special investigatory grand jury was called, one judge basically with the sole responsibility of looking into the murder of Martha Moxley some 25 years ago.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The case rests basically on two things, the report prepared by the Skakel family and the second element is the three witnesses from a drug rehab place where Michael Skakel went right after the incident.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You have this eight day period between Iowa and New Hampshire where all the candidates are in one place, in one state, campaigning their hearts out.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He's a tough talking guy. He doesn't take anything from anyone and that somehow is refreshing for Russians.

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Attorney General of the United States attempted to broker a deal. That didn't happen. When those discussions broke down, she went in and moved very quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They got the boy. They got the boy.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A source close to the bombing investigation tells us that it is a combination of old witnesses who were afraid before who have finally agreed to speak out and new witnesses who have agreed finally to come forward.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There's not one single reason for this run-up. It has to do with EPA regulations. It has to do with supply and demand. It has to do with not having enough stocks on hand.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There was a small report saying that a Russian submarine had run into difficulties and was sitting, had descended to the bottom of the Barents Sea. It might have been an explosion that sent the submarine down to the bottom in a couple of minutes, if not a couple of seconds.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The White House learned the decision just a few minutes before the FDA decision went up on the agency's Web site.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The pill has to be prescribed within the first seven weeks of a pregnancy. We really don't know whether more doctors will provide this pill or not.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There are a lot of people who think Arafat started this violence because he saw that he was losing the support of the Palestinians in the street.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There have been lulls in the intensity of the conflict and everybody draws a breath and thinks OK, it's reaching some kind of resolution here. And then something happens, each time something different, which spirals the conflict off into a new intensity, onto a new level, into another direction.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The experienced terrorism investigators with whom I talk regularly all feel that this must be some kind of international group, that this was too sophisticated and it required too many people, too much logistics. This was too good a bomb to have been perpetrated by a local group.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Those who said the context would be close had no idea how close it was going to be and then you had the beginning of a 35, 36 day ordeal that revealed as much about these two men as, perhaps, a whole year of campaigning had before.

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ANNOUNCER: For more reporting of this kind, read "Time" magazine this week.

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GORDON: All sold out, he said.

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ANNOUNCER: Next...

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GORDON: Watch it.

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ANNOUNCER: She's been called diva.

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GORDON: You've got to give me one kiss.

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ANNOUNCER: And difficult.

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UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Think about it. Great. Good-bye.

GORDON: That's the nature of the beast at this club. Sometimes you have to be rude to people.

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ANNOUNCER: The queen of New York's jazz scene, when CNN and "Time" continues.

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SHAW: If you are looking for a constant in the new year, something you can count on, something that surely will not change, then we offer a slightly dusty nightclub tucked away in New York's Greenwich Village. We first introduced you to the Village Vanguard last summer, as this celebrated institution and its owner marked 65 years.

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GORDON: Yes, I want that cab. Thank you. That's the only -- oh, you adorable man. That's the only way I could get a cab.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Every afternoon at three o'clock...

GORDON: That's the only way to get a cab, find a beautiful man like that.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: ... Lorraine Gordon (ph) leaves her apartment in Greenwich Village...

GORDON: Stay straight on this...

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: ... and heads to work.

GORDON: ... and then make a left turn when you get to Greenwich and then I'll tell you the rest when we get there.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: At 77 years old, Gordon is proprietor of what's been called the most famous basement in the world.

GORDON: I can't find my keys tonight. All sold out he says.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: The jazz club, The Village Vanguard.

GORDON: Here we come.

Eleven thirty it starts, well, where else, in the morning, it's a nightclub.

This is Saturday at 11:30, right?

Yeah, you want to bribe me? Yes, I'd like a round trip visit to Paris and then I'll get you a seat.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: For musicians, the legendary club is a temple.

UNIDENTIFIED EMPLOYEE: Two?

UNIDENTIFIED PATRON: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED EMPLOYEE: Right this way.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: For audiences, a mecca.

GORDON: OK, next. Vanguard. UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: And for its owner?

GORDON: May I have your last name?

It's a way of life. It's culture. It's music. It's aggravation, you know?

All right, there are two on this bank here. I pushed this guy over toward the radiator.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: With energy that belies her age and a great set of ears...

GORDON: Oh, I must have called you because I wanted a -- maybe I wanted to book you. Is that possible?

OK, that's it.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: This feisty grandmother is the diva of New York's jazz scene. She works six days a week to keep the club humming.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Eleven o'clock? Great. Thanks.

GORDON: Good night.

You really have to take care of it. You have to nurture it, you have to feed it, you have to clean it, you know, you have to book it, you have to do everything imaginable 24 hours a day. There's not an end. And so I call it my baby but I love it. It's a wonderful baby, a very good baby, mostly well behaved.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: If the club is her baby, the musicians are her extended family.

JOSHUA REDMAN (ph): Lorraine, to me, is a true artist.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Saxophone player Joshua Redman first met Lorraine when he was a college student at Harvard.

REDMAN: You know, I don't know that she plays any instrument, but she is a true pure artist at what she does and what she does is present music in The Vanguard. She doesn't present music to make money or to attract publicity. She presents music by musicians that she believes in and that's artistic integrity.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Lorraine Gordon's interest in jazz began as a teenager growing up in Newark, New Jersey. Records and radio fueled her passion.

GORDON: And I used to hear a record show on the radio that played a lot of great jazz. The liberal happened to be Blue Note, Blue Note Records, and I said well, whoever made those records is truly a genius. And subsequently on one of my visits to New York City I met the man who made the records and a few years later we got married. UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: That man was Alfred Lyon (ph), founder of Blue Note Records, the label that would become one of the most influential in jazz.

GORDON: So all we did was record, eat, sleep, go home, go to the office. I mostly knew musicians and it could be Louis Armstrong, it could be Sydney Bouchet (ph). That was our life.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: In the 1940s, Lorraine heard about an unknown musician with an unusual sound and an even more unusual name, Thelonius Monk.

GORDON: I had heard about Thelonius, but I never met him. So he took us to his apartment up there in Hell's Kitchen and oh, we came and we sat and we listened and I fell madly in love with his music.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: But getting Monk booked into clubs was a tough sell until Lorraine approached the owner of The Village Vanguard, a scrappy nightclub impresario named Max Gordon.

GORDON: He booked him and nobody came. Max said what did you do to me? You're ruining my business. I said shhh, be quiet, Mr. Gordon, that man is a genius. Well, years later I heard Max tell everyone, you know, he's a genius and I said thanks a lot. However, we agreed to disagree about Monk for the time being, but we agreed about other things so subsequently we got married.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: In 1948, Lorraine divorced Alfred Lyon. A year later, she married Max Gordon.

GORDON: He was a bohemian. He was an intellectual and he hung out in the Village with writers and poets and since he didn't have a living room, he opened The Vanguard so all the poets could come there and recite their poetry.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Eventually the poets were replaced by jazz musicians like Miles Davis.

GORDON: Miles was wonderful. He was arrogant, but he played such great trumpet, who cared? Max made the mistake of asking Miles one night could he just accompany this kid who came in? She was saying she needs a little help, a little accompaniment. Well, you can just hear what Miles said, no, no, no.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: That singer was Barbra Streisand. Max also booked comedians like Woody Allen and Lenny Bruce.

GORDON: My god, Max used to worry about Lenny Bruce because Max was very much of a purist and he didn't like any cursing of any kind. And Max was always worried, what's going to happen, they're going to close me down, you know, he's so bad. But he, Max loved him anyway. He was just a little bit nervous.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: With Max Gordon's knack for finding talent, The Vanguard's popularity soared. GORDON: So Max had to get a liquor license, he had to get a telephone, he had to get a secretary, he had to get a desk. He fixed the club up and it got very, as swanky as it will ever be and that's the way it is.

There's Dizzy and Thelonius and Miles.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Little has changed. Even scars inflicted on the club by one of its legendary regulars, bass player Charles Mingus, remain.

GORDON: In his anger, he took his bass and smashed the light. People come and say where's the Mingus light? So we just, here it is.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Today, musicians like Wynton Marsalis come to play and soak in The Vanguard's history.

WYNTON MARSALIS: It's like a shrine. There's so many great musicians that left their spirit and vibration in that club that when you go in there, you know that you have to take care of some business.

REDMAN: What this room to me does is it demands a type of musical honesty. It demands of the jazz musician that he or she speak the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Max Gordon ran The Village Vanguard until he died in 1989 at the age of 86. For Lorraine, there was only one thing to do.

GORDON: I went in cold turkey. I mean Max died one day right in the neighborhood, in the hospital, as a matter of fact, and I walked across the street with my kids to the club. I closed it that night. That was one night. But the next day it was open.

Well, I just jumped in.

Just wait a minute. Listen to him once.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Even though Lorraine had been around the club for years, she'd never been involved in the day to day running of the business.

GORDON: I did make some mistakes in the beginning. There were great musicians, they just weren't right for the club for one reason or another, because if you put the wrong person in there, nothing happens. The pictures move, the walls don't look happy, all those pictures frown and all that, you know?

OK. Oh, you did? This way.

ROSTON: And she has been criticized for not running the club the way her husband Max had.

JOHN MOSCA: Being a woman in this business is very difficult. It's a tough business. UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: John Mosca (ph) is the leader of The Village Vanguard's Monday night band. He's known Lorraine Gordon for 25 years.

MOSCA: Jazz musicians, I think, haven't traditionally been the most forward thinking in terms of women.

GORDON: Sometimes I feel that I, as a woman, have to pass certain tests of approval from certain people who wonder what does she know and who is she and what this and what that.

I don't know what I mean. I mean 1:00 a.m. is on the night it falls on and I'm not, you know, a Nostradamis.

MOSCA: She has developed this dragon lady persona that serves her well in the business. But there's a -- there are a few of us who know she's really a softie.

GORDON: I have a big mouth sometimes, but, well, that's the nature of the beast at this club. Sometimes you have to be rude to people. I have taken, I have given people their money back, don't stay here, please, it's not your kind of club. You cannot talk through the whole show. And don't use a phone, one of those phones in your pocket that's ringing.

Are you going to give me one kiss?

REDMAN: You can't help but love her, you know? I mean I feel like part of me fell in love with Lorraine even as she was yelling at me, you know? And I don't even know what it was about.

GORDON: You're a what, a virgin? Wait a minute. Wait a minute. What did you say you were? Oh, a virgin -- a surgeon. I'm sorry. You're a surgeon.

The phones keep ringing. I didn't make 'em ring. They just constantly ring.

Village Vanguard.

UNIDENTIFIED CORRESPONDENT: Most of the club's business is conducted in the kitchen, part office, part dressing room, part rehearsal space. The room, like the entire club, is virtually unchanged from its early days.

GORDON: There's Leadbelly. I used to come here as a kid to see Leadbelly. And that's Coleman Hawkins. This is where he was sitting, whatever chair was here, and this was filled with the bottles, you know, cases.

REDMAN: And that's inspiring, you know? It's a great sense of history, but it's not history weighing down on you, it's history uplifting you.

GORDON: They know when they're going to play at The Vanguard it's not going to change when they come back again. It's going to have the same red velvet drapes in the back and the same bandstand. It's not going to change. That's the beauty of the place. It's like always coming home to something you're familiar with and very often I just look out at the audience and I watch every one of them as they face the bandstand and I watch their rapture. Each face is like transfixed. The enthusiasm, that's my reward.

UNIDENTIFIED PATRON: You make people happy and we think that's a good thing.

GORDON: Oh, that's beautiful. You come here and that's wonderful.

All those beautiful people who are so grateful.

UNIDENTIFIED PATRON: We'll come back again.

GORDON: My pleasure.

I like that. I like it. I love it. It makes me feel wonderful. I think it's not, it's not in vain, Lorraine, even if they say you're tough. It's OK. Don't feel bad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SHAW: Maybe the best tribute to Lorraine Gordon and her late husband is this fact. Over the last 40 years, nearly 100 live albums have been recorded at The Village Vanguard.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHAW: When asked his definition of success, Dallas preacher T.D. Jakes has a simple answer -- success would mean that before his death he will have brought to life every creative idea that god ever gave him. It is quite a tall order unless, of course, you are Jakes.

With an innovator in evangelism, here's Aram Roston.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CONGREGATION: Hallelujah.

ARAM ROSTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Six foot two, 260 pounds packed in his custom made suit, Bishop T.D. Jakes leads the singing.

CONGREGATION: Hallelujah.

ROSTON: Here at Potter's House, a non-denominational church in Dallas, worshippers are enraptured by his motivational message.

JAKES: I mean if you're going to provoke a real change in your life, you have to be prepared to be radical.

ROSTON: Jakes, a Pentecostal minister, bonds old time religion with modern self-help pop psychology.

JAKES: This is not polite but tell somebody and tell them I will not shut up.

There is a common thread in my message that says you can make it, you can survive, you can overcome whatever it is that you face. And I think that I'm a motivator and encourager. I like to think of myself as a coach.

God is getting ready to give you a miracle, but you've got to be crazy enough to crouch so, to shriek like an animal.

ROSTON: His congregation has been called the fastest growing in the U.S. It now numbers 25,000. Why is he so popular? He preaches to women and men about confronting their secrets, about subjects like childhood sexual abuse and domestic violence.

JAKES: Cry out!

CONGREGATION: Cry out!

ROSTON: His message hits a particular chord with women. Linda Gines (ph) has been coming to Potter's House for three years.

LINDA GINES: I think what most women are connecting with on the subject of abuse is they are seeing him more as a father image and they're connecting with a strong male figure that says to them it's going to be OK.

ROSTON: Religion writer Adelle Banks (ph) says that focus on exposing emotional pain has made Jakes one of the hottest phenomenon in American religion.

ADELLE BANKS: He talks about things that people don't often want to talk about in or out of the church and that really connects with a lot of people who have been hurting.

ROSTON (on camera): Why wasn't it in the church before this?

BANKS: People were afraid to talk about it and now some of the people who are outside the church aren't going to come in until people address the issues that are really in their heart.

JAKES: It has been previously so taboo to discuss these subjects, today through television and technology, books and media, it has become less taboo to talk about, articulate our pain.

Jesus I'll never guess what you've done.

ROSTON: And Jakes incorporates every variety of that technology in his high tech house of worship. Potter's House, which seats 8,000, is essentially a $40 million television studio with a state-of-the-art digital audio system. There are even connections for computers under the pews. His service is televised internationally and is beamed into prisons throughout the U.S.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Listen, Vernon, don't you start with that. You have just been laid off.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Now, that don't matter. God is still good.

ROSTON: He writes plays, currently "Behind Closed Doors" is touring the country.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: All she wants you to do is change the sheets with your lazy self.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I'm tired.

ROSTON: This summer, 80,000 women gathered to see him at the Georgia Dome in Atlanta.

JAKES: My neck is starting to sag, my breasts are starting to droop. I'm getting a belly. I'm tired. I'm sick and tired of going through hell.

ROSTON: But T.D. Jakes reaches his largest audience through his books. He has written 28 of them and sold millions of copies, books on religion and on love, but also on finance and investing.

Thomas Dexter Jakes was born 43 years ago outside Charleston, West Virginia.

JAKES: I carried the bible in school and they called me the bible boy and the boy preacher.

ROSTON: T.D. Jakes' first church was in this former garage in Charleston. He worked at the Union Carbide plant. He married Serita Jamieson (ph) and had twin boys. Then, hard times came. The plant closed.

JAKES: And we were laid off and found ourselves going from what I thought was an adequate income to no income at all. That was perhaps one of the richest moments of my life, though it was one of the poorest moments of my life. It helped to balance me. It helped to expose me to a side of life to which I perhaps would not have had an understanding or a depth of appreciation for, the character that is established through adversity.

The devil doesn't want a virtuous woman because he knows he won't be able to hold her.

ROSTON: But T.D. Jakes says his life began to change when he started talking directly to women about abuse in the home. It was a breakthrough for him and for those to whom he preached.

JAKES: And it was my idea of responding to women who I had counseled and were hurting and had been through various types of oppressions.

ROSTON: In 1993, he published "Woman, Thou Art Loosed."

JAKES: When I did publish that book, it was an investment, and a very frightening one because it took every penny that I had to get it out there and I got about 5,000 copies, emptied out our bank account and sold out in about two weeks. UNIDENTIFIED FAN: You have changed my life. All of your books, I read them all.

ROSTON: The book went on to sell one and a quarter million copies, making T.D. Jakes a wealthy man, and establishing him as an author. Jakes says his mission is to give people a new self-esteem. His ministry doesn't just feed the homeless, every Sunday dozens get a shower, a haircut and a change of clothes to come to the service.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Everything 50 percent off, great series like help, the devil's after my home.

ROSTON: At times, the bishop sounds more like a high pressure salesman than a preacher. The books, the television programs and the business ventures have brought tremendous wealth. The man who couldn't pay the light bill 15 years ago now lives at this mansion in North Dallas.

(on camera): They point to the huge house, the beautiful cars, the well tailored suits and they ask is that the message your followers are getting is that they can receive these nice things if they follow god?

JAKES: I'm grateful that god has allowed me to discover some talents and resources that aside from ministry and aside from preaching, I've been able to explore creativity, open up businesses, do companies and still be true to my calling.

ROSTON: You are sometimes referred to as possibly the next Billy Graham. How do you react to that?

JAKES: I don't think that god is in the business of duplicating people. I think he makes one designer's original and then he breaks every mold. My goal is not to be Dr. Graham or Dr. King or anyone else. My goal is to be the best T.D. Jakes I can possibly be and it is to that end that I work every day.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SHAW: For more on T.D. Jakes and his dynamic evangelism, visit us on the Web at cnn.com/cnntime.

That is it for this edition of CNN and "Time." I'm Bernard Shaw. Have a happy new year.

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