Talk:Minneapolis: Difference between revisions

This article is undergoing a featured article review. A featured article should exemplify Wikipedia's very best work, and is therefore expected to meet the criteria. Please feel free to leave comments or be bold and improve the article directly. If the article has been moved from its initial review period to the Featured Article Removal Candidate (FARC) section, you may support or contest its removal.

This talk page for Minneapolis is only for discussing any article improvements and is not a general forum about the topic. [ Meetups | To Do ]

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12Auto-archiving period: 120 days

	Minneapolis is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 20, 2008.
Article milestones Date Process Result March 26, 2007 Good article nominee Listed May 1, 2007 Peer review Reviewed June 28, 2007 Featured article candidate Promoted
Current status: Featured article

This  level-4 vital article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Minnesota Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Minnesota, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Minnesota on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MinnesotaWikipedia:WikiProject MinnesotaTemplate:WikiProject MinnesotaMinnesota articles Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Cities This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of cities, towns and various other settlements on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CitiesWikipedia:WikiProject CitiesTemplate:WikiProject CitiesWikiProject Cities articles United States High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

	Article facts
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened: May 24 to 30, 2020

User:SusanLesch continues to revert efforts to remove the following:

"Minneapolis resident and author Dan Buettner^[1] was host of the Netflix docuseries Live to 100: Secrets of the Blue Zones".^[2]

My concerns with this edit are:

• The edit has been added to the "media" section, yet none of the content meets the criteria at WP:USCITIES#Media, and the edit has absolutely nothing to do with media in Minneapolis. In fact, "Live to 100: Secrets of the Blue Zones" isn't even an article; it redirects to List of ended Netflix original programming, where the word "Minneapolis" is mentioned exactly zero times.
• This appears to be an good-faith attempt to "puff up" the article with a promo for a local personality (who--according to this edit--has participated in something non-notable, and which has absolutely nothing to do with Minneapolis). Please note...the article already has a specific place for "notable people", see List of people from Minneapolis.

The input of others would be appreciated.

Magnolia677 (talk) 22:44, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They shouldn't be listed here, not notable, not relevant to an article about Minneapolis either.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 01:49, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have no horse in this race. Blue Zones have had questionable scientific reception from Science-Based Medicine, an outfit I subscribe to generally. But the jury is still out because Blue Zones' loudest critic never published his 2019 preprint in a journal. That's been four years.

Magnolia677, you gave us two rounds of reverts based on notability. I responded directly to your comments and that's been resolved. Now you've changed your argument to content dispute, puffery, and WP:USCITIES#Media guidelines. To quote those guidelines: If any major motion pictures, television shows, or syndicated radio broadcasts were filmed/recorded or originated in the city, this would probably be a good place to put that information. Thus the show belongs in Media. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:26, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@SusanLesch: This source says that "Live to 100: Secrets of the Blue Zones" is a four-part documentary, indicating it does not meet the criteria for inclusion. Moreover, the word "Minneapolis" is mentioned at that source, and at this source, approximately zero times. Are you suggesting that a documentary with no content related to Minneapolis, should be included in the media section only because the author lives here? Magnolia677 (talk) 13:18, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, living and working in a place is the meaning of "originate". Nobody but you would disqualify documentaries. Where do you get this stuff? You should be proud of your .1 million edits removing bad edits, but your opinions sometimes overtake Wikipedia guidelines.

Public health and nutrition are a niche without a WikiProject: generally editors don't care. Your multi-pronged, shifting attack sounds like WP:IDONTLIKEIT. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:27, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're getting awfully close to making it WP:ABP, instead of addressing actual arguments. glman (talk) 14:44, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me, Glman, I don't see that anybody else here raised Harriet Hall's objection, or quoted WP:USCITIES, or alluded to Saul Newman who wrote but never published a non-peer-reviewed critique. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:13, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. This is not filmed in Minneapolis and does not relate to the city; it appears the only connection is the host. Per WP:USCITIES#Media it does not belong here. glman (talk) 14:41, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wonderful, !votes decides it. I don't understand where you guys come out of the woodwork, but haven't contributed a word at FAR where people are needed. All are welcome. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:55, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For our archive, this article about Blue Zones and their critics appears to be written by a real journalist.^[1]

P.S. DeWitt says that Buettner sold Blue Zones to Adventist Health in 2020.

A new documentary, The Fall of Minneapolis, is getting a lot of media attention (it's free to watch online). This may be a source of content going forward. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:18, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, absolutely. @Magnolia677: Please run Alpha News by WP:RSN, and we could add them to Media. I am always in favor of more local media.

MPR raised questions about Alpha News that that noticeboard can answer. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:20, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There has been resistance lately at RSN to discussions unless there is a previous dispute, and for the purposes here, I don't think there is a dispute. Featured articles have a requirement for high-quality sources, and based on the MPR questions raised, this would be unlikely to be a usable source for a Featured article. So, I see no dispute. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:26, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That said, I'm unsure this kind of source would even be used at Murder of George Floyd or George Floyd, so whether to include this might be raised at those articles. Including it here would also seem to get in to UNDUE content for this article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:31, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Very sorry, I made one disastrous edit (meant only to change a single word). After starting to ask for help at the Village Pump I realized my error. Taking the rest of the night off. -SusanLesch (talk) 01:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's been an enormous undertaking; enjoy your evening! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:10, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I request that the first two lead sentences for Minneapolis be changed as follows in accordance to consistency and the standard formatting of the most populous cities in their respective states (E.g. Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Phoenix, etc):

Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/ ^ⓘ MIN-ee-AP-ə-lis), officially the City of Minneapolis, is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. As of the 2020 census, the population was 429,954. Cleter (talk) 00:28, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done - The current formatting seems to be clearer and more concise. glman (talk) 00:44, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, oh it SEEMS to be clearer and more concise, okay. Yeah well I guess that’s the way the cookie crumbles. After all, you have more experience with this sort of stuff. Cleter (talk) 01:31, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize for my sarcasm Cleter (talk) 02:00, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Not neccesary in my opinion. Its better off if the articles arent strictly uniform for this kind of stuff, I don't believe most readers/editors care enough to do so.

File:WaRei.png WeaponizingArchitecture | scream at me File:WaRei.png 20:01, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Might I suggest a compromise? We could potentially combine elements from both formats while also retaining the clarity that the current format offers. For example, we could start with Cleter's proposed format but slightly modify it. Here's a potential revision:

'Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/), officially the City of Minneapolis, is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. As of the 2020 census, its population is 429,954. --Svenskbygderna (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A request please that editors not use "big cities" as a model. Only Featured Articles, of which there are only a few cities (Cleveland, Washington, DC, Boston, Ann Arbor, Michigan). -SusanLesch (talk) 20:17, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Very well, thank you for letting me know. Cleter (talk) 01:59, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

. Support - Hey yeah that works, thanks Svenskbygderna! Yeah I can roll with that; in fact if that goes through, I might change cities with past tense population statistics to reflect this change. Cleter (talk) 01:59, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it makes sense to include this in the first sentence. It flows better in the second with the population, and other featured city articles do it that way as well. glman (talk) 19:49, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please provide examples of such featured city articles? I am suggesting that the most populous city in a state deserves its respective formatting, I understand if other articles aren’t on the top of a state’s population. Cleter (talk) 19:58, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SusanLesch lists them one comment above your support. Why is it better to place this in the first sentence rather than the second? Why does it take precedence over the location? glman (talk) 20:06, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cleveland and Ann Arbor are not the most populous cities in their respective states (with D.C. not even being in a state). Boston’s example only strengthens my point. Cleter (talk) 21:33, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand your comment. Cleveland is perhaps the best maintained American city article on Wikipedia. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What I'm trying to say is: "Cleaveland, Ann Arbon, and Washington D.C. cannot be used as examples in this case. We can use Boston's example to change Minneapolis's lead sentence to what I proposed." Cleter (talk) 23:49, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhat off-topic: does including "officially the City of Minneapolis" bring value here? It's substantially similar to the article name, and forces the words "city" and "Minneapolis" to be repeated. It feels like something that should be reserved for the history section or a new "name" section. We removed it from Milwaukee for similar reasons. See MOS:LEADALT. (Regardless, it also needs a citation to support that it's the official name. The current citation only supports the census' usage of the phrase.) Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 19:03, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ed, I don't understand your comment. Milwaukee is not a featured article. I added a source for you anyway, even though it borders on WP:OVERCITE. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ed's comment is about the inclusion of the phrase "officially the City of Minneapolis" in the lead section of an article. Ed feels that this phrase may not add value to the lead section because it is similar to the article's name and may lead to unnecessary repetition of words. He suggests that such information could be better placed in the history section or a new section specifically dedicated to the name. Ed also points out that the phrase needs a citation to support its inclusion as the official name. He refers to the Manual of Style MOS:LEADALT to support his argument. Cleter (talk) 23:56, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SusanLesch He's discussing removing "City of Minneapolis" entirely. The lead already says "Minneapolis is a city" which is simply restated in sharing the official name. It doesn't make sense to restate unless the official name differs. Several city pages omit the restating, including Ann Arbor. glman (talk) 00:46, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Woah, entirely? Gee what if we put it on the history section? Cleter (talk) 03:08, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pro-removing it. It repeats what can easily be gleaned from the text. It only makes sense when the official name deviates from what can be assumed normally. glman (talk) 19:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If that’s off topic, why not create a talk page regarding the matter? I support the move of the official name to another section to avoid repetition and clutter in the lead sentence. Cleter (talk) 20:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This section is discussing the lead sentence, so I figured it fit best here even though it differed from the OP's focus. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:23, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I understand now. Thanks, but could we continue the discussion I requested in the first place? Cleter (talk) 16:16, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the concern is clutter, we could also consider moving pronunciation to a footnote, per MOS:PRONPLACEMENT. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:09, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would also support this. Anything that makes it easier to get a reader past the first sentence is a positive, in my book. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:23, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would that by any chance include my proposed change to make it “the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota? :D Cleter (talk) 03:45, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cleter, I have no opinion at this time on your proposal. Someone else is working on the lead and I differ to him.

Thank you for pulling MOS:PRONPLACEMENT out of a hat. I sign on with with Ed and Nikkimaria. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:34, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Thank you oncamera for bringing this up to my attention) I (once again) request that the first two lead sentences for Minneapolis be changed as follows in accordance to consistency and the standard formatting of the most populous cities in their respective states (E.g. Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Boston ((featured)), etc):

Minneapolis (/ˌmɪniˈæpəlɪs/ ^ⓘ MIN-ee-AP-ə-lis), officially the City of Minneapolis, is the most populous city in the U.S. state of Minnesota and the county seat of Hennepin County. As of the 2020 census, the population was 429,954. Cleter (talk) 00:28, 20 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]